Janett and Dan Raymond are students at Humboldt State University.

 Dan: "I'm Dan Raymond, resident of Arcata and this is my wife Janett.
We've read this poem, Lessons of War..."
 
 Janett: "Several times."
 
 D: "Several times, this obtuse piece of literature and my experience-- I
do have some military experience. Not of the infantry nature, but I was a
flight engineer in a V-24, in the air force, which was the air force that
engaged in the air defensive of Western Europe.  My group also was part of
operation Tidal Wave.  Rereading this paper..."
 
 J: "Rereading and rereading."
 
 D: "And rereading and rereading..."
 
 J: "and REREADING!"
 
  (we break into laughter)

 Amy: "It gave you all something to do this weekend."
 
 J: (chuckle) "we had plenty else to do."
 
 D: "Yes, tonight we sing in the Chorale at Humboldt State.
It seems to me that the author of this poem was British because of his
use, because he says, 'Don't call the bleeders sheep', and that to me is
quite obvious that he is British because that comes from the British
profanity where the worst thing you can tell somebody is he's a bloody
fool or something of that sort; the American equivalent is you're a son of
a bitch, that sort of thing.  And bloody, it reduces the bloody in the
case  where you're not that quite upset with the person; and bleeders is
an obvious derivation of bloody.
    Looking at point of time for this, I looked at all the wars I could
think of, going back as far as the American Revolution.  It would almost
fit in about any of them, except for the fact that they use a reference to
a clock.  During WWI, most people did not have a watch; no one had a
wristwatch because there were none.  The first wrist watches came in the
mid 1930s.  Therefore, if you were gonna date this thing, we'd have to
date it as some place around WWII. So my view of it after reading it was
that the operation refers to a British assault force, of some sort.
They're on a mission to try to take and hold ground..."
 
 J: "Which they had already had then lost."
 
 D: "Yes, yes.  They took some ground, now this, we don't know the size of
the force.  The force could be a platoon; it could be a company; it could
be a division; it could be an army.  But we don't know and I don't think
it makes any difference.  But they have a limited objective here. It looks
like they took some ground & were driven out.  They took some ground last
Tuesday, and they were driven out of that ground.  Now they need someone
to go take a look to see what has happened--what has the enemy done?  The
enemy could be anyone, you know. It could be the Italians, the Germans..."
 
 J: "Mention the arc."
 
 D: "Yeah...he talks in this about the arc and I believe that refers
possibly to the arc of visibility.  He talks about the trees; he's
concerned about visibility because he says there are only three types of
tress.  One is Fir, the other is Poplar...is it Poplar?"
 
 J: "Poplar and the..,"
 
 D: "And then those that have bushy tops and..."
 
 J: " Which I conclude, down here where it talks about Elms, were the
bushy tops."

 D: "And those trees are concerning him because he can't see under them.
Forces can hide in underbrush and men can be almost invisible.  The sheep
I questioned.  If sheep are peacefully grazing, it must have been quiet
for some time. I believe that the British forces are exhausted because he
talks about an observer looking to the West and he's asleep.  And, if you
have ever experienced combat, you will not understand the depth of
fatigue.  And...go ahead."
 
 J: "He talks about the two sets of apparently lovers, but if it's for the
 battlefield, it'll be a long time before anyone can do that."
 
 D: "Especially in plain sight."
 
  J: "Well they're under trees."
 
  D: "I know but those people are over there where the enemy apparently
is, and they know that this force is around someplace, so they'd be
watching; and that can inhibit you.  And by the same token, usually where
there is or is going to be military action, the residents become
refugees..."

 J: "And invisible."
 
 D: "And get the heck out of there because they don't want to die,
particularly." 
 
 J: "But he thinks that the sheep are not really sheep."
 
 D: "Yeah, I think the sheep may not really be sheep."
 
 J: "What appears to be animals he says, he thinks someone may be trying to
pull something over on him."
 
 D: "By the same token, at a long distance you can put a man in one of
those snow uniforms, those snow parkas, and maybe you think it's a sheep;
and, by golly, it's the troop.  We don't know what that was, and he warns
the people to be careful, 'whatever you do, don't call them sheep'
 
 J: "And he talks about the lovers in two separate places."
 
 D: "No, I don't think the lovers are here, I think they're only here."
(pointing to the diagram he drew)
 
 Amy: "The one question I had, I don't know if you guys have any further
insight, the very last line of the poem, was there any reference to
distance as a year and a half?  That's very frustrating."
 
 D: "No, no...that's very frustrating to me, too.  I couldn't figure it 
out."

 J: "'Who incidentally appear by now to have finished'--whatever they were
doing--it says at seven o'clock from the houses."
 
 D: "So they would be down here by the houses, which are to the east side
of that..."
 
 J: "Well he talks about the other ones which are over under the Elms."
 
 Amy: "Does he say they are to the east and to the west
simultaneously?  Does he make that mistake?"
 
 D: "No, I don't know what he said."
 
 J: "Well, he talks about a man and a woman under the Elms and here there
are a man and a woman by the houses.  I gathered that the Elms were not
by the houses."
 
 D: "But they could be.  We don't know where the Firs and Poplars were."
 
 J: "We don't know anything about all this.
  (we break into laughter)
    Like I say, I've read lots of poetry, but most of it has some rhyme
or some iambic pentameter or some...this is more prose than..."
 
 D: "And it's obtuse, too.  Nothing is as it appears to be."
 
 Amy: "And that's why it's so frustrating, because you want to know..."
 
 D: "It's a year and a half."
 
 A: "It's a year and a half and what is going to happen in a year and a
half?"
 
 J: "You don't suppose that they expected it would take a year and a
half to get where they had been last Tuesday?"
 
 D: "When you're in a military situation, you don't think you're getting
out of the military because every day is an eternity.  For instance, in
the job that I had, it was the most dangerous job in the world.  Really,
statisticly it was the most dangerous job in the world.  In that job,
your chances of survival, they told us when we went into it, that we
were expected to live for eighteen seconds of actual combat before dying.
We were volunteers."
 
 J: "This was my impression of the poem: it was easy to put you to
sleep."
 
   (We broke into laughter and began talking about other subjects)
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